To Tell or Not to Tell?

Through all this, we often come to the question of whether of not we should tell people about MJ's Asperger's. Now I'm not going to be one of those moms that broadcast his autism to anyone we encounter on the streets. (Seriously, I have seen a lot of moms come up to me and just announce "My son has autism. That's why he is this way." or "Please excuse him, he has autism!" when there really was no reason to announce it. I was just a stranger and their kid wasn't doing anything weird or wrong.) But, when do I tell others about MJ, or should I tell them at all?

What really are the benefits of telling other people about MJ's Asperger's, or what are the downfalls from telling? I worry about this alot. It seems to me like it is important to tell adults or teachers who will be working with him. I usually just have a small chat with his church leaders or teachers, or new cub scout leaders before he starts in a new group just so they will have a heads up in case there are any problems. I always meet one on one with school teachers and make it very clear that I keep a close eye on happenings at school. Several of my friends know about MJ, and family know, and they are supportive and mostly accepting.

I just worry sometimes if it will hurt things if word gets spread across town that MJ has Asperger's. I don't want him to turn into some freak child that people whisper about behind their back. Like having Asperger's is like "having cooties". Sometimes I worry about those parents I've told about MJ, and if later in life they are going to discourage their daughters from dating him because they wouldn't want them to marry an Aspie. Is this dumb? Or I worry that all these people won't see him for who he is, but only see the label on him his whole life. I want people to know him and love him for him, and not for some pity thing or be stand-offish because they don't want to be around someone who is different.

Before we knew anything, people didn't pity him or anything. We did get a few comments from family and friends about his awkwardness and things he did, but no one really thought it was anything major. He was just a little odd.

When we found out all these things and about Asperger's, we let a few people in on it, and now it seems like people approach me asking, "oh, this is because of his autism, isn't it?" Or I'll hear comments like "he is such a special child". And no one really wants their child to be referred to as the "special" child, when you know what they are really saying. They don't mean special, but they mean disabled in some way.

It bothers me. When we found out about his Asperger's, I thought it was almost liberating because it could explain things better. It was the answer to all our why questions. But at the same time, the label came with all sorts of looks and judgments from others.

I mean, so what if he has Asperger's. So what. Sure, it helps us to know how we can direct things a little better and how his mind works a little differently, but it isn't a bad thing. I guess I'm mostly just worried about his future. I don't want people to avoid him or girls to not want to date him because he is an Aspie.

OK, so I married an Aspie. So. If I would have known my husband had Asperger's before we got married, would I have still married him? Yes. I guess I am worried for stupid reasons. If a girl really loves my son, then I'm sure having Asperger's is not going to matter. Any girl, and anyone could either accept him or not accept him for any reason. Maybe it is just the worry that people won't even take the chance in the first place to get to know him if they only see him holding the "I have autism" sign in their head.

I think it is just that you want so much for your children. You want them to have a bright future and to be happy, and anything that comes in the way makes you worry.

My husband didn't have the label. Did it help or hurt that he was rather just "odd", or would it have been better to have been "Aspie"? He believes his life would have been better growing up if his parents and teachers would have known the difference. But today? He has accepted his Asperger's, he even proudly tells it to others, although he isn't broadcasting it to just anybody. Maybe that's just it. We'll have to continue to pick and choose who and how we tell.

Anyone out there have any input on this?

Realization of Asperger's---Too Many Years Too Late?

All this time while we have been doing the evaluations and testing for MJ, the doctors and psychologists kept on asking questions about my husband. They kept looking at each other with these knowing glances like they knew a hidden secret or they shared some inside joke. It slowly came out---MJ had all these issues with AS, but they were all directly similar to the way my husband acted and thought. And true, as I read all these pamplets and books about Asperger's, maybe the traits didn't fit MJ so much, but they sure fit my husband. It had to be true---my husband was the one with Asperger's and MJ had somewhat genetically inherited it too.

As the doctors said, "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree". This was their confirmation to me that my husband probably had it too.

Now, I had been telling this to him for some time after the initial testings and diagnosis for MJ, but he still didn't really believe it or accept any of it. I think he felt it was somewhat of a disease or something and he didn't want anything to be wrong with him.

Slowly I got him to read some different articles and I introduced him to some other Asperger blogs to show him how much these other Aspies talked and acted like him, and slowly I think he began to see it.

One day he came across one of the blogs on my blogroll written by an Aspie guy who has a lot of great insight. On it he had a link to an online Asperger/NT kind of rating thing. One of them was http://aq.server8.org and another one was at http://www.rdos.net/eng/Aspie-quiz.php . He went ahead and took a couple of these online quizes and was surprised when he scored right into the Aspie range. Still skeptical, he asked that I take them. When I came out so dramatically opposite to his Aspie scores, I think he finally began to accept he was a part of it.

So, yeah, he has never been officially diagnosed, but the doctors and psychologists treating MJ seem to agree, and all these tests point to it, and most of the things we read seem to match right up, what else could it be?

Actually it has been almost a relief to my husband following his recent acceptance. His whole life growing up he felt stupid or like something was wrong with him. It's different if you know you have Asperger's growing up. Then you know there is a reason for your differences or odd behavior. But if you grow up being odd and weird and don't know there is a reason, then you grow up feeling stupid and wrong just because it is your own fault and you just can't do anything right. This is how my husband felt. His parents ridiculed him daily and always let him feel he wasn't good enough. His siblings laughed and made fun of him behind his back. What a terrible way to grow up. If only they had this realization back then, I think his life would have been happier and he would have felt like a better person.

As far as being married to an Aspie, well, I'll tell you it helped our relationship out in huge amounts. When I was first married, the first years were so hard. I couldn't understand how he couldn't see the need to do all these important things. How could he not notice this or that? How could he not think of anything spontaneous on his own? Why did he absolutely hate surprises? Why couldn't he get anything done? Why couldn't he remember things? Why couldn't he talk to people? Why was he so afraid to call people on the phone or ask people for things? Why did he get so upset about little things that didn't seem to be a big deal for me?

We would have weekly fights over all of this. Why couldn't he change? Why was he so obsessed with the computer and how could he lose track of so much time so easily?! Was our marriage doomed? Was I going to have to be more of a mother that a wife?

When we began learning about Asperger's it all began to make sense. I began learning how to redirect my sentences or be more direct in the way I talked. I learned how he didn't know what I was saying when I made little comments about, gee how I wish this would be done, or I made huge sighing noises or faces. If I wanted his help, I needed to be direct and ask for it. If we were going to do something or go somewhere different, I needed to tell him ahead of time. If I was going to paint something different or rearrange the furniture, I needed to give him a heads up.

I do love my husband, and I do not in any way think there is anything wrong with him. I realize and accept his Aspieness and am thankful for the realization to give us a better understanding of one another. I am greatful for his insight when it comes to communicating with my son.

If anything, there are so many benefits to being an Aspie. I know different Aspies have different traits. I don't know about those that seem to lack human affection or sensitivity. If anything, my boys show so much more sensitivity and care for others. They might not know the best way to communicate and they might seem awkward in any conversation, but they truly love and care for others. They just don't always know how to do it properly. Maybe they don't care how they dress or understand why it matters to match clothes, but they are so smart, and really open my eyes to all their insights. I will never be upset that I married an Aspie, or that any of my children inherit it, but I will cherish them and every part of them that makes them the unique person they are.

The Start of 3rd Grade

MJ was entering 3rd grade and would have a new teacher, so the first week of school I emailed his teacher asking if I could meet with her to discuss his Asperger's and kind of give her a "guideline" to working with him. She emailed back and set up a meeting on the Friday of the first week of school.

Before this day the school had a "Back to School" night where you can go and meet the teacher and they usually give you handouts and explain class policy and curriculum. It was here that I found out some interesting things she demanded of her students.

Now during the summer MJ had been assigned to practice these timed math tests called 36's. This is where they have 36 math problems that they must complete before a minute and 30 seconds. When we worked with him during the summer, he never finished any of them. I tried them and finished OK, but my husband, the computer programmer barely did. I figured it was no big deal that MJ wasn't finishing them, that is was just to get them to go faster, but when I went to the Back to School night, I found out that she required these to be done in a pass or fail.

Now, when I heard this, I immediately raised my hand and told his teacher that I didn't agree with it and why must they be timed---if they knew the math, wasn't that good enough? I told her how we had timed myself and my husband, and if he, a computer programmer, could BARELY finish them, then how did she expect an 8 year old boy to? She proceeded to tell me how it wasn't that bad and that they work on them for a long time and eventually everyone passes them off. I held off and told her I would discuss more of this with her when we met on the following Friday.

Friday came and I was ready. I got on the internet and printed out a copy of the Oasis Guide for Teachers for teaching kids with Asperger's. It is a great resource and great to give to teachers. you can find it here. I went through it and highlighted the things that more pertained to MJ, and I wrote little add ons and suggestions, as well as writing a list of things very particular to him and how she could handle it.

I thought I had a pretty good resource and guideline/outline sheet for her and it would help her and MJ alot. When I met with her I proceeded to tell her how he was pretty much an average kid, but there were a lot of differences that might cause him problems.

I explained about how he had to be cued for almost everything. I explained how he had problems with transitions. I explained how you had to be extremely literal. I asked her if she had noticed the way he walked or the little jerks and hops he did. She said she had picked up on that from day 1. I explained to her what they meant and how to read MJ in a sort. We discussed his terrible handwriting and spurts and repetitions in his speech. (She would ask a last opinion from the speech therapist that worked with him the previous years if she wanted to continue that.) And then, I began to explain his processing delay and asked her how was he to do these 36's?

She said she would work with him a lot and take him aside, and even have him pass them off orally. But here I am thinking what difference is that going to make because his processing is delayed from brain to mouth or brain to writing. It's not like it's going to be faster orally. I didn't say anything toward that, but I figured I would wait and see, and hopefully something would be worked out.

Mostly the meeting went well, and she seemed very helpful and accepting of MJ's differences, and I was glad she was so open as far as communicating with us.

Things seemed alright, at least the first couple of weeks, but then they began to change and we would soon see an up and down rollercoaster of events to follow.

Once we had thought he had "grown out of" this Asperger's stuff, and maybe he had adjusted or matured, but we would soon learn we were mistaken.

Processing Delay

One of the most difficult thing I seem to face with both my son and my husband is the amount of time it takes them to answer a question. Now, I don't know if this is truly an Asperger's thing or not, but they both have this sort of delay before they can formulate their words to answer a question.

I'm sorry, I must be the most impatient person in the world, but it drives me crazy when I really want to know something and they can't spit the answer out as fast as I want it.

With MJ, it may be something involved with his auditory processing that they tested out, but I'm not sure. Whenever he is asked a question, he may immediately know the answer and react even to raise his hand, but when he is called on to answer nothing comes out. It's as if he knows it but it takes a little longer for his brain to organize the information into words.

We have had a difficult time watching teachers call on him only to assume he didn't really know the answer and then go onto the next student. It is frustrating to see people ask him things and then just assume he is dumb when he doesn't answer right off.

Part of the problem is the way his mind works---it can't be interrupted. Like if you ask him something (and then it takes a bit before he can get it out) but then since you aren't getting an answer you start to say something else, or ask him again, or reword the question, then it messes him all up and he has to start processing all over again. So for super impatient me, I have to seriously hold myself down and bite my lip from trying to coax an answer out of him.

My husband, who clearly understands all this somehow, keeps telling me to be quiet and be more patient and wait for the answer. Now, really, I'm not all that impatient, it's just hard when something bad happened or something is wrong and I can't get the answer out of him. Like if he's upset he can't tell me why quick enough, or if something important just happened he can't produce the information fast enough. I just go crazy!

Besides my insanity, there really has been difficulties that this delay was causing, and some really big ones were about to come. MJ was entering 3rd grade now with a brand new teacher, and we were soon to find out that some teachers only care about how fast you can get things done.

Nods, Hops, and Jerks

Have you ever seen the show on ABC called Boston Legal? It's a rather interesting show about a group of lawyers that all have different personalities and quirks. One in particular is a lawyer who has Asperger's named Jerry. Now, he doesn't have it in real life, but he plays the role pretty well I think. I'm sure it's a bit exaggerated, but it all plays out to see how someone can truly be successful in life even if it means making certain adjustments.

Why I bring this up, is if you have ever watched the show, the character Jerry has all these little quirks about him. One thing in particular is that he always has his hands plastered to his legs, even when he walks. Now, I've never seen anyone with Asperger's do that, but it's the other things that opened my eyes a bit when I started noticing things MJ was doing.

On the show, Jerry makes little sounds or grunts in reaction to things, and often he'll do a little head jerk or a full out hop to show his approval for something. Now, I've always watched this show and just thought he was cute and funny, and I loved to see how the world could get used to a guy that didn't play by the same social rules as everyone else.

Anyway, I started noticing little things that MJ was doing throughout the day that was a little "different". MJ has a lot of problems as far as communication. It takes him a little bit longer to process things, or get his thoughts in order before he answers a question. Also, sometimes it all comes out in jumbled spurts because he has so much he wants to say but his mind can't organize it in time with his mouth. I started seeing when I'd ask MJ a question and he was going to respond approvingly, that before he could make the words work, he would do this little nod or jerk of his head. Often too, he would almost do this little hop in his chair.

He would do this all the time, little hops, nods, and jerks I call them. I found that I could communicate a lot faster with MJ by reading his body language through these nods, hops, and jerks, than to wait for an actual verbal answer.

Interestingly enough, when we met with the teacher starting his 3rd grade year at the end of the first week, she had already picked up on him doing this, although I had to explain to her what it meant.

I don't know if all Aspies have these little things they do. I know they are not a "tic" as some kids can get, because it is not something uncontrollable or like an eye twitch or something else that is habit forming. It is like this is a part of MJ.

I know some Aspies display different physical actions a little differently than an average kid would do. MJ tends to wave his arms around a little too much when listening to music or watching something intense. As always, I talked about how MJ walks around on the tips of his toes. And doesn't walk smoothly, it's always kind of with a spring in his step.

My husband has always done this sort of stress relieving thing I'm guessing where he's spasticly exploding his fingers out of a balled up position and I know that is not normal, but I still love him.

There are all kinds of little things here and there, and it has never really been a big deal. Only recently have people started to come up and ask me "oh, does he do that because of his Asperger's?" And that is always a weird question for a person to ask someone. But I suppose as he's growing older, his differences are becoming more pronounced.

The Need for Sensory Overload (or underload)

I've talked before about Sensory Integration Disorder and how before we had the diagnosis for Asperger's, that this is what they thought MJ had.

I find this as a large part of Asperger's. There is this need for some sort of over stimulus in sensory, or maybe there is the need to not have it at all. What I mean in this is that maybe a person might need to be moving all the time or touching and feeling, but then another person with Asperger's might be someone who hates touching or spinning or jumping.

With MJ, he always seemed to be spinning. Jumping, dancing and spinning, he had to be moving all the time. He didn't like to sit still. Along with his spinning and toe walking, it didn't surprise me when one day he came to me and asked if he could take ballet classes. He already didn't like any sports, and so I thought this would be something fun as an extracurricular activity that he could do.

Not just the spinning and moving, but another thing we always noticed with MJ was his lack of personal space. He was always overly groping people I thought. Now, I don't mean this in an ugly way, but he just would be a little too grabby or huggy snuggly up with people. Surprised? Most people who think Asperger's think anti social and don't like to be touched, but really it still breaks down to the not understanding social rules or norms so to say. MJ would sit too close to people, hang on them, snuggle up to them, and always talk to them right up to their face.

This has caused a lot of problems when it came to school or church. He didn't understand or maybe he didn't realize how close he was getting to people. Once at school another boy punched him in the stomach for getting in his space. It's nice for a boy to be loving and snuggly, but it's not great in any given situation. You probably shouldn't be snuggling on up with your new church teacher or whoever strange person you come across.

Now, as far as underload, or the need to not touch or feel---this comes across all sorts of ways. The whole walking on toes things was pinpointed to the sensory need to not have his heels touch the ground. Or what about the way clothes scratch and poke? As an NT, I don't seem to have that much problem wearing something a little scratchy or whatever, but give a stiff shirt to an Aspie and they will just about freak out. I find this more with my husband who thinks he is going to die sitting through a church meeting in a button up shirt.

Or, what about the need to not have people touch you? I am very lucky that my husband is not an Aspie that hates to touch or be touched as far as in a relationship, but at the same time he says that he can't stand to be sitting in a group in a small setting where his knee might possibly touch someone elses. It about kills him trying to focus on not moving his legs or feet in the chance he might touch another person.

We work with MJ as far as his sensory issues by letting him be in dance and spinning away, and then trying to teach him about personal space and when it's OK to hug someone or not. Everyday is a teaching day as far as "what should you do in this situation".

Loudness and Social Behavioral Differences

Funny to put a picture of a clown on this blog post, being that most often Asperger's might affect a person into being more quiet, more hidden, or reserved than another, but sometimes an Aspie might appear totally opposite. It's rather someone with Asperger's just doesn't fit into the normal socially accepted patterns or rules during every day happenings.

With MJ, it was often that he was robotic in the way he reacted socially. Yes, he would talk to people, or respond, or give hugs when instructed or what not, but we noticed that it was different than that of the other kids.

I think I first started to really notice it when he was in Kindergarten. I watched when all the kids would leave for the day that they would all high five the teacher or hug her and say bye, but MJ was like a drone. He would walk like in a trance right through the door and the teacher would be putting her hand out or waiting for a hug and he wouldn't even realize it. I would tell him, "hey, your teacher is saying bye, or say bye, MJ," and then he might make a movement to respond, but it was very unnatural.

I noticed again when at a house of another boy his same age watching the way this boy and his mom talked with each other. It was a shocking experience to see such a difference in the way they communicated and how reserved MJ was and how little I could get from him. MJ's communcation came out in spurts and jumbles and it was tough to follow a conversation with him. He would often start a subject then change subjects so fast that I usually had no idea what he was talking about and it was very hard to follow. Plus, he was too quiet or mumbled a lot, and it was difficult to understand.

When talking back and forth with another person, I would usually have to verbally instruct MJ to repond or that he needed to go say goodbye or hello or thank you to this person. He would always do things, but it was only by instruction. He didn't seem to know how to respond back and forth as if he didn't understand the social norms.

Then again, and why I have put the picture of the clown up there, often times MJ would be totally opposite. He is the loud one, a little too loud in social groups sometimes. Like during a game or movie, he'll be the one laughing with this bellowing loud laugh, or if someone is telling a joke he is laughing a little too loud, a little too long, or often it is as if at the wrong moment.

I actually get a kick out of it. I think it makes him one of those funny good going guys that his friends will remember always had a good laugh at things, or they could always remember him laughing. Then again, it does kind of disrupt things sometimes and cause problems especially when it is at the wrong moments.

My husband does often the same thing as far as the loud laughing. Well, maybe it's just that he will start hysterically laughing at any random commercial. I guess I have never really been around people that just laugh out loud to commercials, but he sure does. It makes me smile though.

Anyway, we have been working with MJ as to when or what he is supposed to do or say when in different situations. I guess it also takes into affect the problems he has misunderstanding sarcasm or phrases people say that have different meaning. I'm always sure to teach him what things mean when it is something new, and I'm trying to help him be polite and socially knowledgeable, and hopefully be able to respond and react as any other person later in life.

I must add that just because he is being instructed to say hello, goodbye, hug, talk, show thanks, etc, does not mean that he doesn't appreciate these things himself or not want to. It is just that he doesn't realize the appropriate times or when to do them.

Being Literal--Say What You Really Mean

From the time MJ was little, he was always so literal about everything. I'd say, "Put on your shoes." And he'd say, "They're not shoes, Mommy, they're sandals." Or I'd say, "Get your coat on." And he'd say, "It's not a coat, it's a jacket."

Sometimes it would drive me crazy because I would shout at him, "You know what I mean, just do it!" But really, as it came to be, he didn't know what I meant, and as the years went by and I learned more about Asperger's, I realized that he didn't understand all sorts of things unless I spoke in exact literal terms.

As a person with Asperger's, they don't understand the hidden meaning behind things said, or they don't understand sarcasm or even funny phrases than seem understandable to others.

For instance, I once told MJ that his aunt "lost her voice" and he was horrified. I had to explain what I meant. Another time someone said "that girl was smokin' hot" and I had to explain that she wasn't on fire, but that they thought she was cute.

As far as understanding the hidden meaning, this is the toughest one. When in first grade, I met with the teacher for the first parent/teacher conference and she showed me how MJ was failing excellerated reading because he hadn't taken any tests. She said every time they finished a book they were supposed to take a test on the computer, but MJ wasn't doing this, he was just reading another book one right after another. She said when she asked him why he hadn't taken any tests that he said he was just excited to read the next book. And so he continued to not take tests.

This is when I really was awakened to how much I needed to be super exact with MJ. He didn't understand the teacher's "why haven't you taken any tests?" question to mean anything but "why", when the real meaning the teacher meant for him was "you need to take a test now, and after every book you finish reading".

I had to explain to the teacher that she had to tell him exactly what she wanted from him and not ask questions to mean something he needs to do.

It's like with most kids you could say something like "gee, I wish somebody would help me clean up" or "maybe if you wanted to be nice you would play with your sister" and they would understand to help you clean up or play with their sister, but for an Asperger kid, they don't see any hidden meaning, they just hear you talking to yourself or making a comment that doesn't really affect them personally.

We learned that if we wanted something done that we had to directly and specifically tell MJ what it was that we wanted. Never ask rhetorical questions, and never assume that he knows what is expected of him unless you have directly explained it to him. Telling an Aspie child something like "Now, remember we are in the library now, or remember we are at church now" will do nothing for them to understand the real meaning of "You need to be quiet now." You must just say what you really mean.

And really, wouldn't life be a lot easier if we all just said what we really meant without this beating around the bush thing? Let's just get to the point!

The Need to be Cued

2nd Grade went by without hardly any struggles (probably because of the great works of his teacher who knew him well by now) except for a couple major things---not remembering things and having accidents at school.

Now, what do I mean by this? Well, one big part of MJ's Asperger's is the inability to do things on his own unless he has been cued. This affected almost everything in his life from getting dressed, eating, doing homework, remembering to take his work home, right down to the very basic in knowing when to go the bathroom.

We had a lot of problems in 1st grade where I would pick him up from school and he would be wet. I would worry first most that his classmates had noticed and that he would be made fun of, but luckily he always seemed to have accidents at the very end of the day when he was leaving the last class or getting coats and things ready to go. I felt bad that I'm sure the computer lab teacher was always having a wet chair to clean up, and well, it just wasn't good all around.

In first grade, I had met with the teacher and explained that she must tell MJ to go to the bathroom at least one time after lunch. I remember she was defensive at first like I was accusing her of not allowing MJ to go, but I had to explain the whole thing with him and how she couldn't "ask" him to go, or "give him the opportunity" to go, but she must literally say "go now". Don't give him an option. He must go. I figured as long as he always went the bathroom one time at school, he would be fine until time to come home.

MJ has always been potty trained, it is just that he gets so involved in things or superfocused that he won't even realize the need to go the bathroom until it's at the point of no return. He doesn't even think of going until it's too late. And usually, in a school setting, the bathroom isn't just in the next room like at home---it's down the hall and too far in an extreme emergency to make it.

So this is what it came to. It worked well for the rest of 1st grade. 2nd grade came and I think his teacher stopped telling him to go, and he had a few accidents, not terrible, but it was still a problem. We needed to figure out a way he could cue himself.

And this cuing thing applied to everything. In Kindergarten I used to put a large piece of duck tape across his shirt to remind him to turn assignments in. Yes, it must have looked pretty funny, but it was the only thing that worked. I told him he could take the tape off when he turned his work in. I remember his teacher saying she noticed it and wondering if he had a button missing on his shirt or something, but then it was too high, and it always disappeared later.

In first grade I'd wrap tape around his finger (even the tape on the shirt thing wasn't working anymore, and maybe it would bug him when he wrote) that he couldn't remove until he took a reading test.

Whatever we could do to have something, anything cue him to remind him to do something. It was hard. We knew he was almost exactly like his dad with the whole needing to be cued thing, but the difference was that his dad could have a PDA, emails, and a nagging wife calling him or reminding him when he needed to do things. With MJ we hadn't found a success yet, and the school's didn't allow electronic devices to remind him of stuff (well we hadn't pushed it yet) and so we just tried little things here and there.

With my husband, who had still not accepted the idea that he had Asperger's, it was a never ending battle. Thank goodness he had all these technical devices to help, and his job had him by project and deadlines, or I don't know where we'd be. Let me tell you his days off were incredibly difficult. Nothing was getting accomplished and we were trying everything. Calenders, to do lists, phone calls......it is a difficult task.

We just wished for MJ's sake that we could find a way to teach him how to take care of things himself. We needed for him to learn to be self manageable. So the battle went on, with new inventions day to day, some working, and some not. We realized the best things were more of a reward system, although the annoyance system didn't hurt too bad either.